to add
Game number: Main Page
White: flounder    Black: bob440
This game (LG) | Download JTwixt file
On 2020-05-16 at 13:22, flounder (info) said:
Is there any way for white to attack after blacks move 18.q5?

On 2020-05-16 at 17:28, MisterCat (info) said:
How about a Medcalf ( 19. U6) ? (mc)
19.u6 20.t5 21.s5 22.s6 23.s7 24.r8 25.r9
19.u6 20.s6 21.s7 22.r8 23.r9 24.u5 25.v4

On 2020-05-16 at 17:44, bob440 (info) said:
That's Achilles ...

19.u6 20.t8 21.t9 22.r9

On 2020-05-16 at 18:46, MisterCat (info) said:
thanks for terminology correction; the Wetpaint site, with all this useful information, appears to not work; all pictures appear as broken links now. It would be a shame to lose all of this.

On 2020-05-16 at 21:18, MisterCat (info) said:
|19.u6 20.t8 21.r8 22.r7 23.p7 24.n6 25.m6 26.l5 27.o7 28.o4 29.k5 30.p8 31.q8 32.r9 33.p10

On 2020-05-17 at 18:11, bob440 (info) said:
um ...

|19.u6 20.t8 21.r8 isn't immediately threatening, so

|19.u6 20.t8 21.r8 22.o6

if 23.s6, 24.s4
if 23.t4, 24.r7

On 2020-05-17 at 18:32, bob440 (info) said:
there's also |19.u6 20.t8 21.r8 22.o6 23.t7 24.t2 25.t3 26.s4 27.u5 28.v3

On 2020-05-17 at 19:49, twixter (info) said:
After Q5 it looks like white has lots of room on the left and can play |19.o9 with some branches:
20.o6 21.m8 22.l6 23.j6 24.j5 25.l7 26.n7 27.i4 28.l8 29.k9 or
20.m5 21.q4 22.o6 23.r6 24.r7 25.s8 26.s9 27.t10 threatening R11 or U12, or
22.r7 23.n7 24.o6 25.k6 26.j4 27.h5 28.j8 29.l6 30.l3 31.i7 or
28.g3 29.g4 30.i4 31.i5

It appears the images for wetpaint were stored in and maybe the account ran out of money. But BoardGameGeek also offers a wiki structure for Twixt, all its images are stored on site, and it's free although it would appreciate any donation.

On 2020-05-17 at 20:25, bob440 (info) said:
how about |19.o9 20.l5 ?

On 2020-05-17 at 22:24, MisterCat (info) said:
Not that easy, Bob.
19.u6 20.t8 21.r8 22.o6 23.t7 24.t2

and now, not T3, but rather 25. V4 .

On 2020-05-18 at 07:58, bob440 (info) said:
Right you are ...

But, I still don't think Achilles works here

|19.u6 20.t6 21.s5 22.r7

23.r8 24.s9
23.s7 24.t8
23.t8 24.r9 25.r8 26.s7
23.s9 24.v7

However, in the game, I would have played 20.t8, so your 21.r8 would have been successful

On 2020-05-18 at 07:58, twixter (info) said:
|19.u6 20.t8 21.r8 22.r7 23.p7 24.n6 25.m6 26.l5 27.o7 28.o6 looks winning for black.

I don't think |19.o9 20.l5 works because of 21.o5 then for example 22.n6 23.q6. But 20.n7 looks more difficult to deal with. Maybe 21.e10 with lots of branches:
22.h12 (just looking at the bottom connection in this branch) 23.d12 24.g14 25.d17 26.d15 27.e14 28.f16 29.c15 30.e19 31.c20 32.d22 33.d23 or
28.e17 29.g15 30.h17 31.j17 32.j18 33.h16 34.f16 35.k19 36.h15 37.i14
or 26.f7 27.k7 28.m9 29.f8 30.g5 31.h7 32.j6 33.i6
or 26.f8 27.d7 28.c7 29.e9 30.e6 31.l6 32.m9 33.g8
or 22.f13 23.i12 24.g11 25.k7
which is all messy and I could easily have missed something.

On 2020-05-18 at 08:27, MisterCat (info) said:
Ah, just when I'm enjoying the rarely constructed good line, I can always count on Bush to throw a wet towel on my joyful moment! At any rate, I do hope Herr FLOUNDER is getting something from all this, since that is my purpose here - he asked a question. mc.

On 2020-05-18 at 09:54, twixter (info) said:
Well my line doesn't look so great either after |19.o9 20.n7 21.e10 22.f13 23.i12 24.h8 Maybe I should eat some breakfast?

On 2020-05-18 at 15:30, bob440 (info) said:
I've noticed (or think I have) that you tend to avoid "in your face" type moves, but what do you think of |19.o9 20.n7 21.e10 22.g10 ?

On 2020-05-19 at 14:49, twixter (info) said:
Yes that is another reason why |19.o9 20.n7 21.e10 is wrong. I call a move such as 22.G10 a mesh hammer attack. In my nomenclature, "hammer" means to play close to an unlinked opposing peg and threaten to get past it on one side or the other. This one is mesh because it forms a mesh 2-0 setup with i10, and it is also at a 2-0 relation to E10.

I will keep looking for an objectively winning path for white after 18.q5 but so far I haven't found one.

On 2020-05-19 at 20:40, MisterCat (info) said:
I have a philosophical issue here; Flounder's 19. Q6 did not work out, but viewing the board at move 18., asked a reasonable question - whether white had a better try to reach the top at this point. We've offered several, whilst Bob440 has tried to defend his position as being 'winning over all attempts'. Well, perhaps it is, but there is a lot of game here, and in a game, there is no reason to expect 'perfect play' from a human player - so perhaps white MIGHT have pulled off a win in any of these, or other ways. Or is this game 'solved' on move 18? Perhaps it was a 'forced win' back on move 14? Or move 10? Move 6? Move 2?

Looking at these hypothetical lines can be fun, and perhaps very instructive, but as far as I know, the game of Twixt is not 'solved', and not all positions can be categorized as 'forced wins' or 'losses'. A game is a game - a series of move-decisions made by human players, who can go wrong at any point. So if twixter wants to keep on helping out Flounder here, power to him - I'm just starting to fail to see 'the point'.

Note - no sour grapes here simply because my lines keep getting busted; I am quite used to that occurrence. My remark is what I said - 'philosophical'. mc.

On 2020-05-20 at 13:04, bob440 (info) said:
Actually, all I said was that I don't think Achilles works in the upper right corner. But, it would have worked in the game because I'd have played it wrong.

On 2020-05-21 at 10:14, twixter (info) said:
IMO this website is all about finding the objectively best moves, regardless of the likelihood of human error. I still have a lot to learn, and holding to that standard helps me improve.

On 2020-05-22 at 12:40, flounder (info) said:
Thanks for posting answers to my question. I will contemplate and analyze these moves. Some good points I have gone over already. I appreciate it.

On 2020-05-23 at 00:16, twixter (info) said:
Heh |19.p7
20.p8 21.r8 22.o6 23.u5

or 20.r7 21.o9 22.n6 23.g7 24.h8 25.m8 26.k7 27.m4
or 26.l5 27.i8 28.k7 29.e8
or 24.j8 25.d10 26.f13 27.e12 28.e11 29.f11 30.g15 31.g16
or 26.e12 27.f13 28.f10 29.f9
or 26.e10 27.f9 28.f12 29.f13

My intuition was nagging me and it took me this long to find it. Of course, I still might have made a mistake.

On 2020-05-23 at 21:52, bob440 (info) said:
well, I'm opening myself up to mc claiming I've proved his assertion that I'm trying to defend the position as unassailable ;^) -- but what do you have for

|19.p7 20.o5 ?

I've encountered a similar position multiple times and have yet to find a solution that works absent an error or other pegs

On 2020-05-24 at 09:12, twixter (info) said:
G7 is still available as a resource for white.

|19.p7 20.o5 21.q4 22.r7 23.o9 24.o6 25.g7 26.h8 27.m8 28.l6 29.i8
or 28.j5 29.k7 30.l6 31.i6 32.h4 33.d4
or 26.j8 27.d10 is the same as before
or 24.n7 25.p6 26.p8 27.m8 28.l8 29.o8 30.p10 31.n10 (no draw for black)
or 22.r3 23.p6 24.p4 25.n5
or 22.p3 23.r6 24.r4 25.s4

On 2020-05-24 at 12:25, twixter (info) said:
Under standard rules with link removal, black still doesn't get a draw, but it's more difficult for white.

|19.p7 20.o5 21.q4 22.r7 23.o9 24.n7 25.p6 26.p8 27.m8 28.l8 29.o8 30.p10 31.q9 (link removal is not necessary immediately) 32.q11 33.p11 34.p13 35.q13 36.q15 37.r15 In this line white does not have to remove any link prior to this move, and now white can choose to remove and add links to form a connected path to T15.

Or 36.r15 37.p15 38.q16 39.r16 waiting until now to rearrange links.

Another variation is 32.r16 33.r15 34.p17 35.s17 36.q11 37.p11 38.p13 39.q13 and again, white could choose to delay any link rearrangement until this move.

On 2020-05-24 at 21:54, MisterCat (info) said:

You must be logged in to add comments.